Guys.... let's lighten the mood a bit.

[DarkAxel]

A few days ago i was walking by our conservatory and it was basically covered with pictures of aborted fetuses. They also compared abortion to II.WW Yugoslavian massacres, gulags and concentration camps

obviously it wasn't very legal, they got moved by the police within a few hours

but it struck me as a total douchebaggery and stupidity

actually i was furious...

so anti-abortionists?

[Bassus Sanguinis]

McSpunckle sure knows how to lighten the mood! You, Sir, should receive an award!

Well...

I have been sympathized by the local pro-life people and I'd like to tell them all to fuck off and remind them what their loving god did to HIS son.

I'm pro choice, obviously, being brought up as a liberal Scandinavian, that's where I stand. Though I'm father for three (I like to count the step daughter as mine, it just... feels better). They are all much loved, too, and taken care of though not really consciously waited for. Only one of the three was wanted, in the strong sense of the word, two of three were statistical accidents that were decided to keep, after given some thinking. Yeah.

As a method of birth control, abortion isn't a good choice compared to the pre-conception birth control like, say, condoms. Condoms, pills, and pessary are easier on the womans body and hormonal balance, too, than abortion after the fourth month. However, I also feel strongly that the woman is the only person to make the decision, consulting a medical doctor without an agenda. Nobody should be forced to give birth against her own will, nor should women be pressured to change her mind by authorities - or by family, either.

[SPACERITUAL]

However, I also feel strongly that the woman is the only person to make the decision

I disagree for completely different reasons that anyone ive ever spoken to considers. I really believe that if an accident happens and the women still chooses to go through with the birth, the male should be consulted, and should he object, there should be some kind of legal hand washing allowed where he eschews any legal claim or responsibility to the child. If its YOUR baby and YOUR body, pay for it YOURSELF.

[Bassus Sanguinis]

However, I also feel strongly that the woman is the only person to make the decision

I disagree for completely different reasons that anyone ive ever spoken to considers. I really believe that if an accident happens and the women still chooses to go through with the birth, the male should be consulted, and should he object, there should be some kind of legal hand washing allowed where he eschews any legal claim or responsibility to the child. If its YOUR baby and YOUR body, pay for it YOURSELF.

Yeah, well okay, that's a solid point.

I've been through that scenario myself with a woman that turned from a nice girl into the only pregnant person ever I genuinely hoped to have a miscarriage, and I told her so, too. No love lost there. Now that I think of it... it wasn't perhaps a classy gentleman move, but hey - I wasn't anymore putting up too well with the heat and spoke my mind.

Actually some Finnish officials hope to come up with a note in the legislation about this. Some cases have been taken to court where young wealthy men have been forced to fatherhood for unwanted children AND have at the same time been denied from seeing their offspring by mother - making it a pretty obviously case of hunt for the Rich boys' support payments. And - in cases - get a citizenship for the baby, so the mother could stay in the country, get a residence permit and enjoy the Finnish social benefits, too.

But... I guess some girls really do come from a fucked up background and are desperate to make a living in here. Desperate here is the key word... which doesn't make it right either, in my book, though the obvious desperation of people in cases I've read of makes it an understandable evil, sort of. Fucked up shit to do to another person, anyway.

[unownunown]

However, I also feel strongly that the woman is the only person to make the decision

I disagree for completely different reasons that anyone ive ever spoken to considers. I really believe that if an accident happens and the women still chooses to go through with the birth, the male should be consulted, and should he object, there should be some kind of legal hand washing allowed where he eschews any legal claim or responsibility to the child. If its YOUR baby and YOUR body, pay for it YOURSELF.

i hear that a lot and i see where it's coming from, but i still disagree

the way i see it, men know there's at least some pregnancy risk when they put their dick in something. freeze some sperm for later and get a vasectomy, i guess ? if someone carries a pregnancy to term the man didn't want, then they're pretty much SOL. obviously they won't have to have custody or anything, so it's not like they're getting the short end of the stick. if she's raising the child alone and he chooses to be a deadbeat, the least he can do is pay some child support. although dna testing should be mandatory in these cases, obviously.

and no, child support payments are not usually exorbitant. although i don't doubt that occasionally people are made to pay a lot, i'm pretty confident that it's the minority. average child support payments are 350 a month, median is 280.

[Bassboar]

Well, if I'm honest, I think the choice should be there for people. Because sometimes it truly is an accident that results in having a baby, outrageous accidents. But I still think abortion should be discouraged and deserves to be frowned upon. I guess it's all subjective, if someone gets caught up in an enormous screw-up(no pun intended), the maybe abortion is necessary, on the other hand, if some frigging slut gets knocked up on purpose, then they deserve to pay for their mistake. Well, like a said, it's all subjective, it all depends on the situation.... I guess

[Bassboar]

A few days ago i was walking by our conservatory and it was basically covered with pictures of aborted fetuses. They also compared abortion to II.WW Yugoslavian massacres, gulags and concentration camps

obviously it wasn't very legal, they got moved by the police within a few hours

but it struck me as a total douchebaggery and stupidity

actually i was furious...

so anti-abortionists?

That's messed up man. Those people are freaks, and they're just as bad over here in Canada.

[JonDaBomb42]

Abortions eh? I do not see the problem with abortions, ( unless your one of those hippies in that case you might wanna get yourself checked) If people who do not want kids get loaded and have the night on them i guess it sucks to be you you dont want children...then just dont have one...if people are forced to have kids they do not want, chances are sooner or later that kid might commit suicide\

[plhogan]

However, I also feel strongly that the woman is the only person to make the decision

I disagree for completely different reasons that anyone ive ever spoken to considers. I really believe that if an accident happens and the women still chooses to go through with the birth, the male should be consulted, and should he object, there should be some kind of legal hand washing allowed where he eschews any legal claim or responsibility to the child. If its YOUR baby and YOUR body, pay for it YOURSELF.

No.

If you stick your dick in something it's your fucking responsibility. I can't tell you how fucked up that is.

[plhogan]

"Get an abortion or I'm not paying for that shit."

Jesus fuckin Christ.

[plhogan]

If I sound like I'm taking this personally, I am. The asshole who knocked up my 19 year old sister demanded the same thing from her. Hell, I wanted her to have an abortion at the time, but it just wasnt something she could handle (you think it's like taking a fucking aspirin?). Now it's me and my wife raising the wonderful little guy with her. More poop and noise than anyone should ever have to deal with, but the fact that this asshole turned tail and ran like a little bitch is unforgivable. But that's exactly what you would do eh? Fucking pathetic, if you arent mature enough to understand sex you should get your dick chopped off and kept in a jar until you're old enough to understand consequences.

[culturejam]

Not as easy, and not as well-thought out as you might think.
Isolated heart cells in a petri dish will start to pulsate on their own and no-one is going to say they're a living human being.
You'd also have to get into the question of what type of brain activity are you going to measure? (You'd even have to get into at what stage in development do you have a brain? When there is a recognisable ectoderm? At the neural plate stage (and when exactly does that start)? Neural groove? Neural fold? Neural tube? Wait tile the neuropores form? You want to wait until all three of the primary brain vesicles form? Or just one? Or two? (and when exactly is that?). Or wait til you have a telencephalon? mesencephalon? rhombencephalon? Axon outgrowth? Before or after synapse formation? Which synapse(s)? And why? Myelination? None of this is easy in nematodes or flies (except myelination -- insects don't do it) let alone human embryos.
And you'll always have dissenters anyway basing their ideas off things people wrote down when they still through the world was flat, at the centre of the universe, and disease was caused by demonic possession.

[hbombgraphics]

The argument that life starts at conception, "well then, hey all sperm is life", is illogical because conception refers to the act of sperm attaching to an egg and creating a new organism. So we can throw that argument out. I think the Meaning of Life already ran as far with that as anyone could.

To assume that just because something is unplanned doesn't mean good can come from it is also foolish and we would never apply that logic to any other part of our life, also some children born in very difficult circumstances grow up to be awesome. I know some grow up to have terrible lives, but so do some kids with great parents, raising kids is a crap shoot.

The other big issue I have is with the argument that life starts with brain activity; we don’t apply that to any other living organisms, trees for example, is it possible that we treat humans worse than plants?

The unfortunate truth about abortion is that the people that I get the impression you all would like to have abortions are the ones who go ahead and have babies, and the people who could probably afford to be a good parent and educate their children well are the ones that are having abortions because they can't be bothered to make the investment of raising a child.

It's interesting that people who are pro-life are viewed as some type of wacky extremists. I realize and recognize that they exist, but in general they are mostly an embarrassment to more rational people.

While it is easy to say that every woman has the right to choose, it is just as easy to say that in most instances if you have made all the bad choices to get yourself pregnant you probably won't make the right choice when it comes to terminating the baby.

I realize that this is pretty much the exact opposite of the direction this thread is headed in, but we probably need to have a little balance about stuff like this.

I am not trying to criticize any one else’s viewpoint on the subject, just point out that the logical flow of thought on these issues isn't quite as logical as we would like it to be.

[culturejam]

If you stick your dick in something it's your fucking responsibility.

I agree that men are just as much to "blame" for a pregnancy as women. How could it be otherwise?

But your policy of responsibility goes both ways. To women you should also say: If you spread for somebody, you're taking a chance, and if you end up preggers, don't act surprised. Deal.

The asshole who knocked up my 19 year old sister

See, this is what I don't get. You're sort of phrasing it like this guy (who I don't doubt is an asshole) somehow got your (legally adult) sister pregnant without her knowledge or consent. Almost as if he played a mean trick on her and she didn't understand what was happening. Unless your sister was raped or is mentally retarded, I don't see how this could be 100% the asshole's fault. It's not something he did to her, it's something they did together. Him fleeing the scene like a coward is something he did by himself, but the pregnancy is 50/50.

[dubkitty]

sorry: there's contraception now in addition to free will. if a woman becomes pregnant in the 21st century it's nobody's fault but hers and should be nobody else's responsibility, especially in cases where the male has no "choice" .

as far as abortion: nobody but sophists and ideologues denies that abortion takes a human life. if people want that on their karma, mazel tov, but i think it should be legally structured in a way that reflects the reality of the situation: if you want an abortion, you should have to go to court and plead no contest to voluntary manslaughter and have it show on your permanent record as the taking of a life. if you're a male and agreed to it, ditto. and i say this as one who was complicit in killing my child in 1974.

you want "rights"...fine. accept the moral responsibilities that come with them; do so in a way that indicates daily and to the society as a whole that you have done so.